Apologies, promises, and when did hating women become the new cool thing?
by eataTREE
Did you miss me, gentle readers? (All four of you; hi to Mom and cousin Mike.)
Yes, it’s been a while; we hope you’ve been entertained by the narrative stylings of the Spastic Tactician while Your Editor of Least Conviction spent a pleasant week in a goat field in Oregon where with wide-eyed wonder he observed and documented the social friction between bands of armed Vikings and drunken pirates. And he did return and immediately begin work a piece on this topic, which has been three-quarters finished for weeks and has now become his infinitely massive mental Sisyphean rock. It absolutely will, he swears before God and mankind, be posted complete with photographs and well worth the wait (or your money refunded!), and in the meantime here is a cute picture of a goat:
Besides bouts of fitful keyboard-pecking and hiding in bed in utter anguished despair, I also started thinking about why Internet culture looks more and more like the No Stinky Girl Cooties Allowed BoysMens Club, except not actually cute or funny in the least. And the more I thought about it, the more the needle on the mental gauge floated upwards towards that red line labelled “Thoroughly Pissed-Off”.
Because as soon as I started thinking about it, I realized that it wasn’t just Internet culture; it’s the mainstream culture. Popular “comedians” who think it’s funny to tell a female heckler that she should be raped. Popular radio talk-shot hosts who call a young woman a slut and a prostitute because she thinks her friends should get birth control pills through the insurance they’re already paying for. Wall Street Journal assholescolumnists who doubt the women whose husbands and boyfriends died shielding them from bullets in the recent Aurora shooting were “worthy of the sacrifice”. And I realized that what I had been thinking of as a phenomenon of Internet culture was merely the Internet’s tendency to collect and distill the crazy poisonousness of the mainstream culture.
Those of you out there with lives and less inclination to stare at the abyss might be unaware that there’s a mostly-online subculture called Men’s Rights Activism. Now the proposition that men have rights is, I hope, uncontroversial. But it seems that what concerns this group is not so much the rights of men as does bringing the status of womenfolk back into the 50′s — not the 1950s, the year 50 A.D.. That women are no longer slaves and concubines but are generally permitted to make their own life choices and (especially) sleep with, or not sleep with, sexual partners as they choose, sends them into fits of frothing rage. They might be merely pathetic instead of contemptible if they didn’t make a habit of cheering on and making heroes of men who kill or threaten to kill their estranged domestic partners, or who set themselves on fire when things don’t go their way in family court.
They are mostly young, overwhelmingly white, and tend to be quite socially isolated and interact mostly with each other; they earnestly reassure each other that the world is half feminist concentration camp run by Andrea Dworkin and Mary Daly, and half singles nightclub as imagined by someone who has never actually been to one but who does watch Jersey Shore a lot. They spend a great deal of time emoting about the horrible injustices men face, such as how women are not required in the United States to register for the draft board, and — by far the worst injustice of all — that women just won’t sleep with guys like them and instead prefer the attentions of “alpha males” and “thugs”. You can read all about these fellows at David Futrelle’s blog ManBoobz, and it’s as fascinating as it is horrible. But it increasingly seems to me that focusing on guys like this is misplaced: despite the depth and breadth of their crazitude, online women-hating “Men’s Rights” crusaders are not a cause of anything, only a symptom. They wouldn’t exist outside the context of a mainstream culture that all too often seems to find hatred of women perfectly acceptable.
Now, perhaps I’m failing to notice the long-term trend, here: this is, after all a reaction of the privileged towards losing some of their privilege, and they seem louder and more virulent now because women have achieved more relative power. I’m also, no doubt, paying insufficient attention to economic effects. The destruction of the middle class no doubt left a lot of men with an unhealthy combination of lots of free time and a need to find something — someone to blame. And maybe if and when the economy recovers in a way which restores employment, many men will have better things to do with their time blame women for the ills in their lives. And yet it still seems like there has been a clear trend that the more historically disadvantaged groups catch up to them, the stronger and more hateful the backlash among the Aggrieved Straight White Dudes grows. I see no movement towards accepting the fact that (to borrow John Scalzi’s excellent analogy) in the grand MMORPG of life, their character class has received a slight nerf and is no longer totally overpowered relative to everyone else. Instead, their dudgeon seems to have steadily increased for decades, to the point where it taints Western culture in a distressing and newly unpleasant way. I grow weary of waiting for my fellow straight white guys to grow up and get over themselves.


Whenever I muse on the subject of Things It Would Have Done Me a Lot of Good to Know When I Was Young But I Didn’t, this realization — and of course, of course there are exceptions — this realization inevitably comes to mind: men really don’t like women.
Is that it? Because it seems to get better and worse over the decades, and if it were as simple as all that it would be all the same.
I think the idea that men don’t like women is a huge over simplification that only feeds source feelings that lead to the behaviours that result in more people believing the flawed idea idea. It’s a truly vicious circle and we should probably cut it out.
Over the past 50 years, men have gone from a position in our society where they held authority over women of a near absolute nature to one where we are not only without that power, but are reminded of the loss at every turn. The changing of the power dynamic was necessary and good. Becoming a society with more egalitarian gender ideals is extremely positive.
The problem with such large paradigm shifts is that they require hard, dirty work to happen. In the 60s, 70s and into the 80s and 90s, being a feminist was not an easy thing. It required strength of character, resolve, bravery and, often, an antagonistic spirit. It was a real fight and required warriors willing to duke it out.
The fight continues, but there have been some signifigant battles won, leading to real improvements in the lot for women. The problem with the warrior role, however, is that a warrior can not afford to stop and appreciate small victories until the war is won. This has lead to all sorts of small but significant areas where the power dynamic has been realigned in a punitive way rather than simply equalizing. ***This is where the real differences of opinions lie*** It is NOT OK to reverse unfair social roles. Subjugating men in ANY way should not be the aim of feminism. The fact that women were subjugated for so long and have yet to throw off all of the ways they are subjugated is not a mitigating factor. Subjugation is wrong, and should not happen.
Do I believe that men have it as bad as women did (or do)? No. That would be delusional. Do I see areas that we need to improve, that, having done so, would reduce the feelings of persecution certain men feel, thus leading to a reduction of their reactionary behaviours that makes people believe that men don’t like women? Absolutely.
We need to remove gender bias wherever it exists. We should never choose to ignore it because it is directed in a different manner than it has been traditionally. Any time we “fix” an inequality by creating another, we have failed, and have given fuel to the assholes who want to put women back where they stood in the 50s.
Family and divorce courts, sexual harrasment policies, hiring policies, advertising trends. These are areas where the pendulum has swung too far. Center the pendulum and we take away the fuel for the minority of men who behave in the ways that cause the feeling that men don’t like women. Then those men become very easy to identify and marginalize. As they should be.
I don’t see this as anti feminism or a men’s movement. I see it as part of the work of feminism. Not creating unfairness is an important part of creating fairness.
I agree the mrm movement is misguided, and misrepresented by any angry man with a blog. I also believe the “patriarchy theory” is flawed and of no use to the 99% of men that dont happen to hold any power, and that feminists have a habit of conflating all men with this 1% as often as they can instead of liberating men from patriarchal roles as they often claim they do. Like pretending Daniel tosh is Representative of all male comics, or one misogynist cops opinion of how women dress is Representative of all cops or how one crazed gunmen reflects what all Canadian men think of women. The problem is feminist theory is part of established academia, it is all too easy to label any dissent of it as “sexist losers that pine for the 50′s” without considering what is the truth or what they have to say. So when explaining the truth behind a feminist statement “women make 70 cents to the dollar” has nothing to do with discrimination, that their is no evidence of discrimination, is often met with cries of “sexist” other than researching the truth. Personally i see both the modern feminist movement and the MRM as biased, agenda driven and divisive, both stifling humanism and equality. But the truth is feminism is a Juggernaut and part of the establishment, while the mrm is a bunch of angry bloggers. Though they are not all like that…http://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat
Considering economic issues without also looking at gender is just as misguided as doing the opposite. Yes, a 1%-er has loads more privilege than a poor guy, but that doesn’t change the fact that all other things being equal, that poor guy has more privilege than his equally-poor sister.
Furthermore, nobody claimed Tosh was representative of all comics; they don’t all have to be doing it for it to still be bad, do they? Limbaugh is, unfortunately, quite representative of talk-show hosts, at least within AM radio. And these examples are data points; they don’t exist in a vacuum. Marc Lepine was neither the first nor the last guy to get mad at women and shoot at them; he just managed to shoot more of them. For every one of him, there’s ten thousand (and I’m sure schadenfraulein will come along to chide me for underestimating this statistic and callously disregarding the deaths of thousands of women) guys who shoot and/or kill their ex-wives and girlfriends.
Academia is the one place where any version of feminism is orthodoxy. The difference between feminism and the MRA is that the feminists get published in more reputable journals.
I kinda drunk texted that but what i was trying to get at is, because feminism is an established mainstream ideology with few dissenters (outside of angry guys with blogs) these general assertions come out of the movement and become fact with little evidence to back them up.
What are some examples of how a man in north america has more “privilege” than a women in his same class in the present? I know thats the feminist slogan but what is the evidence of this?
feminists have asserted, w/o evidence, Toshes statements are typical of male comics in this “oppressive patriarchy” Just as they assert lepines actions are motivated by a cultural misogyny. When rape jokes about men and boys are more common place and actual crime figures do not reflect any epidemic of male on female violence.
In canada there are not 10,000 murders per year, the majority of them are male on male violence and women commit assault against men in equal numbers as male on female, this is all stats canada. Its decades of these feminist assertions of oppression that gives us this skewed perception of things.
I think the difference is both camps make blind assertions and while the mrm are challenged, feminists get away with their wacky claims because mainstream feminist indoctrination has left us believing questioning feminism’s claims and assertions is sexist and not rational thinking.
This is a subject that I have some strong opinions on and have contemplated extensively. I feel I need to take some time to organize my thought before replying here. I will return.
I’m bringing this here from J’s FB wall, as the poor thing always ends at the wrong end of my feminist rage. Although I find it interesting and refreshing that males are acknowledging that this messed up misogynistic shit going on is real… I can’t help but feel the following.
(And please do take these with a grain of salt… as much as I agree or disagree with all the posts gathered by all the writers here, they are nothing if not sincere and heartfelt…) That being said… here’s my “buts”… (and keep in mind not all of them are related directly to the post, but to other dialogues going on on FB as well)…
1) My first reaction, I’ll admit, was an inner eyeroll / eyebrow raise. Oh, all it took was an all-out, sustained socio-political attack on varying fronts of the culture, technological, legal, and societal front for you to acknowledge this shit is real? How nice of you to finally admit that this shit is not all hysterics and over-reaction on the part of women. So, thanks. We’re so, so, sorry we had to make SO MUCH FUCKING NOISE to bring this shit to your attention.
2) And… now that you’ve finally acknowledged the shit is real… All you have is an “Oh-Well, I hope these Neanderthal dudes grow up already”.. La-di-da.. back to your regularly scheduled programming. What? Whaaat? What in the holy fuck?
So that’s it? Your two cents is to go “wow, a lot of this has been going on lately.. Oh well, it isn’t me, I’m not part of the problem, so my hands are clean?” What if these retrograde dudes ain’t growing up? What if the attacks that going against women in North America are not some isolated, fringe cultural ghetto but a manifestation of a more widespread and pivotal problem with the way we view and judge women and women’s rights in the west? What are YOU going to do about THAT? Oh, what you’ve always done? And what would that be? It wouldn’t happen to be nothing.. now, would it?
So.. with apologies at my brazen harshness…
Feminism is not a dirty word in a world like today’s world. If men feel subjugated by my fight to not have my birth control taken away from me, if they are made uncomfortable by my fight to not have to sign an affidavit and go through confession if I want an abortion, if they are annoyed that my voice is too loud and what I’m saying is too uncomfortable for them to hear… The problem is theirs, not mine.
Retrograde men and crazy-ass women (think Bachmann and Palin) don’t get to tell me that the way to fight oppression is with ponies and aprons and pound cake and rainbows. The people watching the fight from the fences, uninterested in the real, tangible impact this cultural war has on the lives of women every day, don’t get to dictate how or in which manner the discourse is to take place, or turn their noses up at the tone and scoff at the ill manners of the discourse..
In a world where more women die each year in North America due to domestic violence than soldiers have died in the war (http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/infographic-more-us-women-killed-husbands-and-boyfriends-military-combat); In a time when *hundreds* of pieces of legislation have been introduced to curtail a woman’s right to choose and to determine what’s best for her body, “others” don’t get to decide that feminist is annoying or outdated or too crass. Others don’t get to decided what is “good feminism” or “bad feminism.” What I get to do is fight and scream and raise my voice when I see injustice, and you do not have to agree that it is injustice for it to be real.
Oh, and I have yet to see a case of this “feminist extremism” that is so spoken about. I’d like you to show me one example… just ONE… of those evil man-hating, birkenstock wearing feminazis you speak of. I have lived in 4 countries, 3 continents–across Latin America, North American, Europe and Asia… and I have yet to encounter this male-hating spectre the mrm complains about.
What I do find, however, are women seething with rage at the idea that we are in the 21st century and we still have to justify what constitutes justice or injustice to the male gaze. What I do see, however, are dozens of political organizations and crooked politicians introducing bills to strip women from their right to have an abortion, to receive medical care, to receive equal pay for equal work, to protect women from pervasive and disproportionate spousal abuse, and who whine and cry at the few morsels of tangible legislation that have been introduced to even out an inherently and historically lopsided system (think title IX, Roe v. Wade, Lilly Ledbetter Act).
I think there are maybe, maybe, two areas in which the men have it worse than the women… Family court and divorce court. Yes, in those areas there is bias towards women and against men… but other than that.. I don’t see where this “punitive” vs’ “equalizing” shit comes into the equation. And even today, the courts increasingly acknowledge this bias exists and slowly works towards giving fathers more rights.
But I don’t see no angry women with tridents coming to take away your rights. I see a hoard of angry women with tridents creating a safety net around those whose rights are being taken away.
And I don’t give a shit if you think the injustices are unreal or perceived. The fact that you can’t see them is your problem, not mine.
So, there.
Aw, we’re sincere and heartfelt. Aren’t we cute?
Please disabuse yourself of any notion that I’ve written some sort of “Application To Join The Presumably Tiny Club Of Men Who Are, In Your August Opinion, Feminist Enough” here. And regarding your unsupported assumption that I had my first thought about gender privilege five minutes ago, I see your eye-roll and raise you a snort of derision. And furthermore, if I thought there was a better way for me to be fighting misogyny than pointing it out and telling other men to stop doing it; I’d (probably) be doing that instead. I should have asked you what to do instead of talking about it? Or was the acceptable response to have pledged myself at once to the Feminist Jihad and abandoned my blog, keyboard, and life for the fight?
Yes, actually: it is indeed back to our regularly scheduled programming where we all live in a world with all kinds of injustice but do what we can in small ways. If this is not acceptable to you, please see Mr. Jones in the Give-A-Fuck Department for a full refund.
Oh, as far as “extremist feminists” go anyone who has hung around the feminist blogosphere for five minutes would be forced to admit that they do, indeed exist, although generally without access to institutional power, ahem harumph etc.. Or is Twisty your idea of a reasonable moderate? (And if you don’t know who that is, don’t go extracting a reasonable sounding quote and then coming back here acting all clever: defense of the proposition that Twisty Faster is not extreme will require at minimum that you explain her claim that you are not a feminist if you participate in female on male oral sex; her transphobia and general statements to the effect that transwomen are Not Real Wimmenz; her general lunacy on any topic to do with heterosexual sex; why the entire rest of the feminist blogosphere thinks she’s insane.)
Yeesh. You made me link to Twisty. I may never forgive you for this.
Well, we can pick to see the worst examples of each side. What is disconcerting is that the misogynistic side has representatives in actual power, pushing through legislation that is actually damaging… From Palin to Bachmann, from Romney to Limbaugh, the efforts to take hard-earned legal rights from disenfranchised communities are in full swing–women, minorities, the poor.
It would be nice if, more than noting, we chose to care and do something about it, in our own little ways. But I guess that’s every person’s choice.
sigh of relief… I’m not the only one waiting thanks to you editor
Well, Trying to word my thoughts in a way to now offend anyone is not working, so I will just post my latest draft and hope for the best.
This is a subject I have been thinking about for some time, and actually tried to start a group to debate, but I have never made much progress. I find that it is far too common that, when trying to fight for equality, people tend to overcompensate. It appears as though the oppressed look at the situation at the start of the battle and think “to be equal, I should have what my oppressors have,” but fail to notice that getting that goal makes them the oppressors, and fail to adjust their goals as things start to equalize.
One of the most obvious examples of overcompensation is seen in health clubs, gyms, and youth groups. Any attempt at forming any one of these that is male only is greeted with accusations of sexism, but there are many female only groups, such as Spa Lady and Girl Guides, who don’t seem to be willing to even consider the notion that they are sexist as well. Their argument is that women need a place where they can feel safe from the lustful and judgmental eyes of men, and I agree, but I feel that men need this as well.
I could go on, there are far to many inequalities that favour either sides of almost every battle for equality in the world.
I’m of much the same mind.
I would add that, once ensconced in the thought processes that go into fighting the battle, people often begin to see every aspect of life ads being a part of that battle. It becomes extremely difficult for a feminist to see a woman who has been wronged and not jump to the conclusion that she was wronged *because* she is a woman.
The biggest problem with this is that it gives all the people doing bad things an easy way to justify their behaviour. Real sexists get to roll their eyes and shrug as feminists accuse them of doing way more than they actually are. Non sexists who do bad things get to agree with feminists when they shout that women should be treated equally. They don’t use gender as a way to choose victims, so they aren’t the ones who need to change.
The only way to make progress in moral debates is to be sure that you are being honest and accurate with what you say. The moment you stray, you’ve almost guaranteed a loss against a culturally entrenched opponent. (The shitty part is that this rule doesn’t apply for the culturally entrenched opponent. They get to lie, misrepresent and bully all they want, with very few consequences.)